並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/tw/podcast/ep-023-%E8%AE%93%E5%B0%88%E6%A5%AD%E7%9A%84%E4%BE%86-4%E5%80%8B%E6%AF%8D%E8%83%8E%E5%96%AE%E8%BA%AB%E7%9A%84%E5%8E%9F%E5%9B%A0%E5%92%8C%E8%A7%A3%E6%B3%95-%E4%B8%8A/id1502072591?i=1000550536659