並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E5%BB%A2%E6%96%87%E6%86%B2%E8%A3%BD%E4%BD%9C%E6%89%80/%E8%A6%AA%E5%AD%90%E9%99%AA%E4%BC%B4-ep33%E8%AA%AA%E8%A9%B1%E8%80%81%E6%98%AF%E4%B8%8D%E5%B0%8D%E9%A0%BB%E6%83%B3%E5%A4%9A%E8%81%8A%E8%81%8A%E5%8D%BB%E8%A2%AB%E5%86%B7%E5%9B%9E%E6%87%89-HcIaOnYS9Cd/